Curse

Sha Noran · Nov 26, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Hi again everyone. I'm posting this evening because I hope to spawn a discussion about a theory of gaming I've developed that has only recently reached a point where evidence pointing to its accuracy or inaccuracy can be accumulated. Please try to note that I'm not trying to make any statements about Guild Wars besides those that are basically factual so long after they have happened; I don't want a flame war, I'd actually like to know if anyone else has seen or heard anything that might shed light on my idea, one way or the other.

I hypothesize that veteran Guild Wars players are better suited to evolving and adapting to react to an entirely new gaming environment than the average online gamer who has not not played Guild Wars substantially. I extend my hypothesis to ANY Guild Wars player that achieved level 20 and continued to play for more than 5 months consecutively, or at least a large enough chunk of time to consider themselves very familiar with their character, latch on to an effective build and complete some post level 20 PvE content.

I base this hypothesis partially on the very team-work oriented nature of many parts of the game (regardless of whether it is a team of people or a team of NPCs, playing completely solo is not central to Guild Wars design and never really has been) and also the constantly evolving and extremely variable oriented skill environment (re-learning hundreds of skills every few months of updating or even just keeping the whole skill list memorized keeps every Guild Wars player thinking overtime). Though those two things are clearly contributing factors to the hypothesis I have presented, I must emphasize that my central point of basis is actually the lack of true rewards the average Guild Wars player receives for his/her continued dedication to PvE after reaching level 20.

The sheer mass of people who continued to grind for NOTHING but entertainment value changed the course of the developer's game design, prompting them to change focus from PvP World Tournaments to Christmas and Halloween events and eventually PvE only skills. Even after titles and additional armor sets and everything was released, I emphasize that everyone's character is still level 20. Despite the power creep of the skills themselves, everyone basically possesses the same power level they possessed when they first gained all 200 of their attribute points. I think it's natural that these players would be further entertained and thus motivated by a gaming environment that rewarded them with great additional power in addition to presenting the same complex simplicity of Guild Wars with all of the social and team aspect in tact.

I'm not saying that they will necessarily FIND the game they are ever looking for, however I'm fairly certain that in their search they will find great enjoyment in some game or another and in the sheer power they can obtain so quickly through actions that previously were undertaken sheerly for the player's entertainment (completing dungeons, advancing through the game, finishing extended quest lines). Just knowing that those players who don't quit playing games altogether will eventually venture on to others in the market (no game lasts forever), and knowing of many who have moved on already, I'd be interested in perhaps beginning to collect some feedback regarding this hypothesis.

Furthermore, using my first hypothesis as a basis for further thinking, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that communities of ex-GW players are sure to form in almost any game that is released within the next 5-10 years, and that those players who find themselves an adequately sized team of other competent players to work with will consistently find themselves in the top tier of gamers from within their chosen game.

Discuss.

taiwf · Nov 26, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

hmmm was expecting some kind of mathematics or algorithm stuff in discussion....

DreamWind · Nov 26, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

I don't think I've ever seen a bad post out of you Sha. That being said...can you simplify your post.

caballo_oscuro · Nov 26, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

So basically what you're hypothesising is that players who play a considerably long time have done so not for fun but for something to do, and that also they should expect more from the game and should expect that their character become comparably more powerful than someone who has just reached level 20, and recognisably so? And they should be justly rewarded with prizes for doing so?

If that's what you're suggesting, I have the following:

Players of games do so for many different reasons, everything from fun, something to do for a few hours, because they enjoy time with the people online, because they don't enjoy time with people offline, because they love to explore online worlds, whatever. If people aren't getting some sense of satisfaction from what they're doing they'll either work themselves into a rut or get out of it,but if people enjoy doing what they do they'll continue and maybe find other things they enjoy.

With regard to characters becoming recognisably more powerful, perhaps you didn't get the memo, but power in GW comes from player skill. If you want to be able to impress the noobs with your epic gear, go play WoW or conan or some other game which allows you to level up in such a way, or find an element of the game which expresses this for you. Otherwise grind titles.

mazey vorstagg · Nov 26, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Furthermore, using my first hypothesis as a basis for further thinking, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that communities of ex-GW players are sure to form in almost any game that is released within the next 5-10 years, and that those players who find themselves an adequately sized team of other competent players to work with will consistently find themselves in the top tier of gamers from within their chosen game.

I believe this is true, infact I agree with much of your post. GW is/was a skill based game and teaches you coordination and planning in a more rigorous way than in other games. Games such as WoW require large teamwork, but only a few players in the team need to think on their feet (tanks and healers and a few dps like druids) in a way like guild wars requires all members to do.

Good post

zwei2stein · Nov 26, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Somehow, i think this is based on you only knowing smart and perceptive people and never pugging.

AshenX · Nov 26, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I hypothesize that veteran Guild Wars players are better suited to evolving and adapting to react to an entirely new gaming environment than the average online gamer who has not not played Guild Wars substantially.

I am curious as to how you balance that hypothesis against the fact that a veteran GW player is actually encountering new gaming environments with less frequency than those playing a game that adds new content on a regular basis. Skill updates in GW are not, in my opinion, the sort of radical changes that justify the phrase, "entirely new gaming environment."

I find your hypothesis intriguing and would like to see more conjecture or data from you to support it before I am convinced. As of now I must say that I believe that the basic idea that playing continuously in a static environment to become, potentialy, very good at a limited scope of endeavors will make you more adaptable than people who are actually dealing with a more dynamic environment seems questionable.

Does GW, at least in its original design, encourage skillful play ? Very much so. Does rarely, anymore, encountering the unexpected make you more adaptable and adept at dealing with surprises ? I don't think so.

Please note that I love this game and, having received it as a christmas gift in '05, still play daily. I am not trying to discount the merits of the game or its veteran players but rather would very much like to see the OP shore up what I perceive of as potential flaws in his hypothesis.

BenjZee · Nov 26, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Somehow, i think this is based on you only knowing smart and perceptive people and never pugging.

and bamboozeling us with big words

Arduin · Nov 26, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I hypothesize that veteran Guild Wars players are better suited to evolving and adapting to react to an entirely new gaming environment than the average online gamer who has not not played Guild Wars substantially.

I doubt I'm any better suited than any other person, be it a GW-player or not. Why? I have been playing through the entirety of GW with basically the same build, the same heroes, and the same tactics. I haven't changed my build very much since Factions, yet I've been able to complete all PvE content on Hardmode, and I'm happily sitting on 26 titles right now.

Even worse, I never cared much about the mechanisms of the skills enemies throw at me. Some hexes might stop me attacking (Spiteful Spirit, Empathy comes to mind), and some skill would always provoke an action from me (Giant Stomp -> Pain Inverter), but other than that, I just keep killing those mobs one at a time. I can truthfully admit I don't even know half of the Ritualists skills, less than 90% of the Assassins' (they damage you, what more do I need to know?). Same goes for Dervish: yup, they wield a scythe and can do big damage, but all I need to do is do more big damage and they are dead.

Call me lazy, but after Prophecies I just lost count on how many skills there are. All of them in one of either category: they hurt you, or they benefit you. So I just stayed with the build that worked, and is still working, even in HM EotN.

So much for my adaptability. Let's have a look at the average player base. These days are all about gimmick builds raping PvE. Ursan has been nerfed but was globally abused, Cryway is running wild, Shadow Form throws all strategy out of the door. These are skillsets that allow you to plough through PvE without ever having to think what you are doing. Just like I have been doing with my build/heroes/tactics. You don't even have to see what enemies are in front of you, just c-space through them and mash your butons. This doesn't make players improve in their skill-level, this makes them mindless drones, pushing 1-8 in any random order. Those people know noting about adaptability. They found something that worked in this game and stopped caring about strategies altogether.

To conclude, I don't think a veteran GW-player is better suited to evolving and adapting to react to an entirely new gaming environment than the average online gamer who has not not played Guild Wars substantially.

That is, if you call a person reaching level 20, and playing for another 40 months, never changing his builds, and only c-spacing through GW, a veteran.

If you call a person who reaches level 20, makes a build for every other areas, changes his skillbar every time he gets in town, changes heroes to suit his needs and reads up on the wiki on possible enemies encounters a veteran... well that person would be better suited.

(PS: I hope I've understood your post correctly, there is indeed some bamboozeling going in)

tmakinen · Nov 26, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Interesting. I'm seeing two separate hypotheses that are only marginally connected.

1. Selection effect. If veteran players are better at adapting, shouldn't it be a selection rather than learning effect, i.e., players who are inherently poor at adapting tend to have a shallow game experience and will stop early whereas people who are inherently good at adapting will keep playing as long as new depths of gameplay can be uncovered?

2. Universal mechanics. If veteran players of GW will adapt faster to another game X than veteran players of some other games (you can't compare veteran players of GW to completely new players because of the selection effect as discussed in #1) then should it be assumed that GW and game X share some universal game mechanics the learning of which in GW will make adapting to game X easier, while at the same time some other games do not share these same mechanics with game X? If so, then what are these mechanics?

Knight O Cydonia · Nov 26, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I doubt I'm any better suited than any other person, be it a GW-player or not. Why? I have been playing through the entirety of GW with basically the same build, the same heroes, and the same tactics. I haven't changed my build very much since Factions, yet I've been able to complete all PvE content on Hardmode, and I'm happily sitting on 26 titles right now.

Even worse, I never cared much about the mechanisms of the skills enemies throw at me. Some hexes might stop me attacking (Spiteful Spirit, Empathy comes to mind), and some skill would always provoke an action from me (Giant Stomp -> Pain Inverter), but other than that, I just keep killing those mobs one at a time. I can truthfully admit I don't even know half of the Ritualists skills, less than 90% of the Assassins' (they damage you, what more do I need to know?). Same goes for Dervish: yup, they wield a scythe and can do big damage, but all I need to do is do more big damage and they are dead.

I think this is an excellent point. Adapting (imo) involves thinking and changing. The very nature of PvE doesn't allow players enought room to do this. Once a veteran player finds a team build that 'works', generally speaking there's no real need to stray away from it. In my case as mesmer, I just fire off some hexes and my H/H will soak up the damage while enemies die.

Obviously when it comes to PvP this isnt the case, as you are forced into thinking and changing your play style or end up no use to your team. (i.e on the floor with everyone yelling at you

)

Vaal 84 · Nov 26, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

a veteran player find a team build that 'works', generally speaking there's no real need to stray away from it.

I feel exactly the same way. Once I got BHA I think it has only left my bar for cookie cutter or farming builds.

In regards to the op I would say that one thing you've over looked is the veteran gamers are better suited to adapt to new games because they are simply game veterans. I've played games for over 18 years when I started way back on a commodore 64. Although AI, graphics, storyline etc have drastically improved, many aspects of games remain the same. As a result we, the gamer have transferable skills. For example if play a new fps i have all the previous experience playing games like doom, half-life, counter strike, etc. I therefore my ability with aiming with a mouse will be better than someone who is new to the concept of a fps. (Well at least that’s the idea)

I am not well placed to comment on mmo's or equivalent as guild wars is the first I’ve truly stuck with. However the 'skills', for lack of a better word, I have picked up playing guild wars for the last 42 months would surely also be transferable.

To finish i would hope that communities of ex guild wars gamers will regroup down the line in another game. Last night i rejoined a few of my old guild mates in a new guild and the experience was fun and refreshing in a game that I know inside out. Moreover the contact with other people, especially friends is what keeps me playing this game.

Arduin · Nov 26, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaal 84

In regards to the op I would say that one thing you've over looked is the veteran gamers are better suited to adapt to new games because they are simply game veterans.

I can agree with this. Games lately are just far too easy. I remember spending months on the last few levels of Super Mario Bros.

But then it struck me. Games aren't getting easier, I'm getting better at them. Last year I played SMB again, and breezed through the levels. Finished it under an hour.

Same goes for shooters, RPG's, Racing games... maybe I've just outgrown them, or the games are targeted at another, younger audience.

Rothan Celt · Nov 26, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Right so from what i understand this is about having flashy sizzle meaning nothing? : ?

Im sorry to say i dnt understand a word and the overuse of hypotheses generaly hurts me....

Quaker · Nov 26, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaal 84

In regards to the op I would say that one thing you've over looked is the veteran gamers are better suited to adapt to new games because they are simply game veterans.

I agree - I too have played video games for a long time (going back to Pong!). Now, when I play a new game like Crysis, I already know before I start, that things like ducking, strafing, reloading, etc., are important, and can set my keyboard up very quickly to do it the same sort of way I always have.

I had very little experience with RPG's when I first started GW though, but the general gaming experience helped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmitheyBen

and bamboozeling us with big words

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rothan Celt

Im sorry to say i dnt understand a word and the overuse of hypotheses generaly hurts me....

Sad to say, but for you two, the problem lies with your lack of education, not with the OP's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Furthermore, using my first hypothesis as a basis for further thinking, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that communities of ex-GW players are sure to form in almost any game that is released within the next 5-10 years, and that those players who find themselves an adequately sized team of other competent players to work with will consistently find themselves in the top tier of gamers from within their chosen game.

This is true - in fact GW has communities of ex Everquest, etc., gamers already. It's reasonable to suggest that these groups of experienced RPG players would be better, at least initially, than new-to-games players.

So, your hypothesis basically comes down to "Experience helps" or "practice, practice, practice" - which is generally known already.

MrPopoy · Nov 26, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Hi, new here and my first post, couldn't resist ^^

OT:

Isn't this true for players in every other online game? Or is it that you find GW players (or veterans) to be of a different breed than the typical mmo crowd?

Those 'true rewards' you speak of - that would keep a player playing, varies for each person. Some people like farming and seeing numbers pile up, some delete 3 year old chars just to make that one 'perfect' char with all titles, some love pvp (and I must say, GW has the most balanced pvp I've ever seen amongst mmos) some, as mentioned earlier play for lack of anything to play, while others stay for the sake of friends/company they found in-game.

You do know the Koreans are currently in the process of creating the 'perfect' mmo, they mold every single aspect that made past mmos successful, they are making progress, slowly . I 'd have grandkids when it arrives >.>

I would say that GW has attracted a 'good' kind of crowd (an old drunk once said that calling others immature is immature >.<) Maybe it's the game design? Or maybe it's ANet's vision to bring us a quality game that drew us in.

Birds of a feather. ^~

Yichi · Nov 26, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

We need a /popcorn smiley...

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 27, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

i was kinda hoping for a discussion on actual game theory

oh well. who wants to fund some wow subscriptions so a group of veteran guild wars players can dominate it and prove this hypothesis that guild wars players are the best.
do it for science!

fenix · Nov 27, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

i was kinda hoping for a discussion on actual game theory

oh well. who wants to fund some wow subscriptions so a group of veteran guild wars players can dominate it and prove this hypothesis that guild wars players are the best.
do it for science!

Actually that's exactly what happened when the players from #gwp went to WoW. They were all top GvGers/HAers, went to WoW, and dominated there too, which adds weight to Sha's theory.

Shasgaliel · Nov 27, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Actually that's exactly what happened when the players from #gwp went to WoW. They were all top GvGers/HAers, went to WoW, and dominated there too, which adds weight to Sha's theory.

Now the question. If they have never ever played GW wouldn't they still dominated WOW?